I’m actually a big fan of JP and his hilarious videos. However, I’ve seen this particular video posted a lot as some kind of an excuse for an argument against veganism. People post it on vegan blogs and forums claiming, “This video shows why vegans are stupid,” or something along those lines. So I decided to make an official rebuttal of the satirical points in the video (even though JP only made it as a joke, and some of the lines in the video even seemed to be praising a vegan diet, as you will see).
So keep in mind, the dialogue in the video is set up to portray meat eaters talking in the same way most people think stereotypical vegans talk.
“That salad’s totally grossing me out. I’ve completely lost my appetite.”
Vegan equivalent: “That meat is totally grossing me out. I’ve completely lost my appetite."
This implies that it’s common for vegans to express disgust when people are eating meat/animal products around them. While some anti-social vegans out there might say this once in awhile, this is nothing like what majority of vegans are like in real life. Since eating meat is the norm for most people in the Western world, we wouldn’t be able to leave the house without feeling the need to chastise someone about their food choices. I don’t know a single vegan who chooses to behave that way, including myself and all my vegan friends. If anything, during a meal, I’m just focusing on the yummy vegan food I get to eat, not whatever someone else might be eating.
“I’m going to the meat-stock flesh festival. You going?”
(RAW) Vegan equivalent: I’m going to the Woodstock Fruit Festival. You going?”
This is playing off of the well-known Woodstock fruit festival. But that is specifically for RAW vegans, not just regular vegans.
“Yeah I want the tofu spring rolls. Except I don’t eat tofu, so do you have like a tofu-flavored chicken you can substitute in for me?”
Vegan equivalent: “Yeah I want the chicken spring rolls. Except I don’t eat chicken, so do you have like a chicken-flavored meat replacement you can substitute in for me?”
Apparently some people get annoyed when vegans ask for meat substitutes when they’re out at restaurants. I’m not really sure why, because a LOT more restaurants are offering veggie burgers and other vegan alternatives these days, so it does pay to ask. If this statement was aimed more at the idea of vegans eating things that taste like meat, though, I address that in point #5.
“It’s not that vegetable-eaters are bad people, it’s just that they’re terrible people.”
Vegan equivalent: “It’s not that meat-eaters are bad people, it’s just that they’re terrible people.”
The majority of vegans don’t actually view meat eaters as terrible people. Ever heard of the phrase “Love the person, hate the act?” Because that completely applies here. Vegans don’t like that people choose to contribute to animal cruelty by purchasing/consuming animal products, but that doesn’t mean we hate the person. If that were true, I wouldn’t associate with my own family members, my best friends, or even my husband! They all eat meat, but of course I still love them and don’t judge them for it. I live my life and still choose to set a silent example either way.
“This sausage is a meat-based substitute for cucumber. It’s got the taste and the texture of an actual cucumber, with none of the cucumber.”
Vegan equivalent: “This product is a plant-based substitute for sausage. It’s got the taste and texture of an actual sausage, but with none of the meat.”
Some people are weirded out that vegans sometimes like to eat fake chicken, fake cheese, or other vegan substitutes. Not all vegans actually eat these things. In fact, it’s healthier if you don’t. Those foods are usually full of sodium, high in fat, and are highly processed. But I myself like to indulge in some vegan burgers once in awhile, or some vegan cheese. They’ve actually come a long way in their taste and texture these days and many are really delicious!
Some people ask, “If you’re against eating animals, why do you eat things that taste like animals?” The simple answer to that is because most of us grew up eating animal foods, just like the majority of people in the modern Western world. Not to mention, meat by itself isn’t really that appetizing. The salt, oils, and spices it’s seasoned with are what define the flavor. You can create those same familiar flavors with plant-foods, so why not? :)
“Eating plants makes your body WAY too alkaline, which will definitely kill you. Do you really want that?”
Vegan equivalent: “Eating meat makes your body WAY too acidic, which will definitely kill you. Do you really want that?”
That actually sounds like JP is applauding vegans for eating healthier foods, LOL. Having an alkaline diet can be very beneficial to our health. However, animal products like meat, dairy, and eggs, actually are very acidic, which can contribute to a lot of health problems including acidosis, bleeding gums, headaches, and brittle hair/nails, among other problems.
“All you need is some meat to be healthy and thrive. You get everything you need from meat. Beef is loaded with carbs.”
Vegan equivalent: All you need are some vegetables to be healthy and thrive. You get everything you need from vegetables. Broccoli is loaded with protein.”
A common misconception about vegans is that they only eat vegetables and tofu. This could NOT be further from the truth. We eat a huge variety of things made from grains, legumes, fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, herbs, and spices. And yes, it is possible to get all the nutrients you need from plants, except for vitamin D3 from the sun or a supplement, and vitamin b12 from a supplement or fortified cereals, plant milks, etc..
However, gram for gram, broccoli really does have even more protein than beef.
“Orcas are even more spiritually evolved than humans and they only eat seal meat. So that means humans should only eat meat, because it’s the most spiritually evolved diet. Because of orcas.”
Vegan equivalent: "Gorillas are way stronger than humans and they only eat plants. So that means humans should only eat plants, because it’s the most evolved diet. Because of gorillas.”
I completely agree that the appeal-to-nature fallacy does not make an adequate argument for any movement, let alone veganism. However, I hear way more meat eaters try to use this argument than vegans. Usually, a vegan will use the gorilla example as a way to show that plants have protein too, and if something as muscular as a plant-eating gorilla can exist in nature, we can be sure plants provide us with protein. However, a meat eater may often try to defend meat-eating by saying, “Lions and tigers eat meat, so that means it’s ok for us to eat meat too.” Are you a lion or tiger? Are you built anything like them? They like to kill each other sometimes too, not to mention they lick their own behinds. So by that logic, those things are completely natural and normal for humans to do too, right? Wrong, of course. Just because something is considered “natural” or is common among other species, doesn’t mean it is necessarily right or good for humans.
“Plants give off oxygen, why would you eat them?”
Vegan equivalent: “Livestock animals give off methane gas, why would you eat them?”
This is actually another valid point. If less people ate animal products, we would have far less methane gas emissions, making a healthier and safer planet as a result. For more info on this, watchCowspiracy on Netflix. Great info.
And then we get into some arguments I’ve actually heard meat eaters make.
Particularly, hunters.
“Do you even know how dangerous deer are when you’re driving your car? If you don’t kill and eat deer first, you basically want people to get into car accidents.”
“The world’s a much safer place if we eat the animals that could eat us.”
Right, because I’m sure those blood-thirsty cows, chickens, deer, and other herbivores would completely devour us if they had the chance. ;)
“Broccoli? That’s what my food eats. That’s my food’s food, and I don’t appreciate you eating that.”
Well, your food poops, so no thank you, LOL. Obviously both of these aren’t much of an argument because they are just jokes and not actual points.
“You should eat Siberian tigers to help them go extinct. It makes it so that they can live on through you and your children for generations to come. The best chance for the survival of their species is for us to kill and eat them.”
That was obviously a joke, but I’ve actually seen a lot of people online supporting the idea that by spending a whole bunch of money to shoot an endangered animal, they money they spend helps “save” endangered species. So they think it’s okay to kill one member of endangered species in order to save others of that species. I have a better idea. To save endangered species, how about just donating all that money to those organizations WITHOUT killing any animals. That would help conserve them a lot more!
And then we get back into the reversed vegan arguments:
“That coconut was going to grow into a palm tree. Why would you eat that?”
Vegan equivalent: “That lamb was going to grow into a sheep. Why would you eat that?”
I’ve actually never understood why people choose to eat baby animals. I was even against that back when I ate meat. But what a lot of people don’t know is that animals on factory farms never even get to live the full lifespan they’re capable of living. For all intents and purposes, all factory farmed animals are still extremely young.
“I could never eat plants that are raised in crowded farms and inhumane living conditions, with less than one square inch of space per stalk, stuck in the soil against their will.”
Vegan equivalent: “I could never eat animals that are raised in crowded farms and inhumane living conditions, with less than one square foot per slot (for chickens), stuck in cages against their will.”
This is actually a valid argument. Chickens, pigs, cows, and other livestock are often crammed into spaces where they can’t even stand up or turn around. Imagine living like that. There is no argument that such a thing is cruel and unnecessary. In fact, even what we know to be “free range” isn’t that free after all.
“Have you ever thought of going meat-eater to help save the planet? Or do you just not care about the earth?”
Vegan equivalent: “Have you ever thought about going vegan to help save the planet? Or do you just not care about the earth?”
Everyone cares about the planet to some degree. And going vegan can actually help the planet in a HUGE way! It can help reduce your carbon footprint.
And can also help save a LOT of animals.
And people.
“Have you seen the Kale-spiracy documentary? You’ve gotta see it. It’s so heartbreaking seeing how all the plants are killed and the deforestation from the plant farming and unsustainable farming practices. Kale farming is the number one destroyer of the environment. Once you see it, you'll never eat plants again.”
Vegan equivalent: “Have you seen the Cowspiracy documentary? You’ve gotta see it. It’s so heartbreaking seeing how all the animals are killed and the deforestation from the factory farming and unsustainable farming practices. Cattle farming is the number one destroyer of the environment. Once you see it, you’ll never eat meat again.”
JP is right on this one. The Cowspiracy documentary really is very eye-opening. In fact, I’m surprised that there are so many people who shout about climate change, but they ignore the info in this film. It really could change everything for the better if more people made the switch.
He then throws in some comments from other characters in the sketch.
“As he redundantly repeated his emotionally-charged nutritional opinions at me, I was instantly convinced to become a meat-eater.”
Yeah, no one ever gets convinced by someone trying to force their views. When people ask me about veganism, though, I do make it a top priority to have actual nutritional studies as references, though, so my argument is not just an “emotionally charged opinion.”
“JP was the most illogical condescending person I’ve ever met.”
I’ve met a lot of meat eaters like that too. Jerks can show up anywhere anytime.
“Saying something like that is just a symptom of being overly alkaline. It just makes you mean and you can’t think straight.”
Vegan equivalent: “Saying something like that is just a symptom of being overly acidic. It just makes you mean and you can’t think straight.”
Well, one common symptom of a high acid diet is mood swings. ;) But in all seriousness, of course there will be a couple vegans here and there who are rude like this, but there is bound to be a rude member of ANY group or movement out there. That includes any religion, social group, political group, etc. I don’t believe that trying to force your opinions on anyone is right, but I also notice that sometimes people ask me about veganism, or even challenge me on it, and then get angry at me for answering truthfully. But I never go out of my way to preach veganism to anyone unless they ask, and all of my vegan friends seem to do the same.
I did actually think this was a funny video, because there are a few vegans, especially on YouTube, who have taken things too far a few times. But it saddened me that most people who watched JP’s video took it as how vegans actually act, and then shared it all over social media, labeling it as such. I can tell you honestly, most vegans are nothing like this. However, even if there are those few vegans who make the movement look bad, we must remember that the truth is the truth no matter how it is portrayed or how “rude” a believer in that truth might be. One funny thing I did notice, though, was that for a while, JP had some clickable links in the video for faux meat that people could purchase if they were interested. So I wouldn’t say he was completely against the movement after all. ;)
As I mention before any rebuttal, I have no issues with Roaming Millennial as a person. I see her as a very intelligent girl and I usually agree with most video topics she posts about. This is just something I felt was way too generalizing and I wanted to offer some balance and perspective.
In Roaming Millennial's video introduction, she says she just has an issue with vegans, not veganism. On the surface, this doesn’t make much sense. You don’t have a problem with a movement, just those who follow the movement. Right… But I do understand what she was attempting to get across. She has no problem with the choice to abstain from animal products, but does have a problem with vegans that are pushy and disrespectful of other’s beliefs. In that case, though, it would have been helpful for her to express her point in those words specifically as opposed to just mentioning mere “vegans.”
She does mention that she thinks there are a lot of benefits to veganism as well as environmental/sustainability benefits and though she chooses not to take part in it, she doesn’t see veganism as a bad thing. She also mentions that most Americans eat way too much meat and too much processed food and that it’s way more cost efficient to eat greens than meat. Lastly, she mentions how so many animals are treated inhumanely by the animal agriculture industry. She says that those are not the main points of her video, though.
She then switches the main theme which is simply “a lot of vegans act like jerks.” And then we get on to the five main arguments she offers:
They “don’t shut up about being vegan.” She says this is the least serious but most common problem that she’s noticed. She says most vegans feel like they have to tell everyone about veganism as much as they can, which is annoying to her, stating, “No one cares about your diet.”
So people aren’t allowed to talk about their lifestyle or express what they’re passionate about? I get that it can be annoying if someone talks about something you disagree with. I’ve had many talks with people of other religions who were passionate and encouraged me to join them at their church sometime, but I didn’t take it personally because when people do that, it’s not a personal attack. On the contrary, when someone shares a personal belief with you, it’s like when you see a beautiful rainbow and can’t wait to tell other people about it so they can experience its beauty and happy feelings too. You share your beliefs with others because you want them to feel how good you feel. Now in my own case, I rarely talk to people about my vegan lifestyle unless I am asked. But let me tell you, I am asked a LOT. People are fascinated by lifestyles that are not the norm, especially when it comes to different diets, so though I don’t go out of my way to tell people about what I believe, I still end up doing it because I’m ALWAYS being asked, “Why didn’t you take a hamburger? They’re delicious!” or “Why did you ask for no cheese on your salad? Are you trying to lose weight?” That kind of thing.
Vegans are often “aggressive and hostile.” She says she’s been called a murderer and a rapist by vegans online. She mentions a lot of vegans on subreddits express how they wish they could stop viewing meat eaters as evil beings.
First off, Reddit is not only a creepy place, but also is in no way an example of how most vegans view meat eaters. Also, when vegans say things like that, it is because they have seen all the footage of what happens to animals in factory farms and they are disgusted that people still support something so terrible and horrific. I would agree that it is horrific and that more people need to take responsibility, wake up to what’s really going on, and make an effort to change toward a more ethical way of doing things. I don’t see this as meat eaters being evil, but instead, just clinging to a social norm. Yes, there are people out there who protest aggressively and use ad hominem attacks against meat eaters. But veganism aside, there are aggressive and hostile people in literally ANY group of people. Every religion, every diet group, every belief system, EVERY group has a portion of them that are jerks. Unfortunately, the mean ones with loud mouths are usually the ones who are noticed the most, so people assume that the majority of the group is like that, when in real life, it couldn’t be further from the truth. Literally NONE of my vegan friends are anything like that. Also, about the hate comments you receive from people online, for one, welcome to the internet. It’s full of haters no matter what you’re talking about. But also, if you want to avoid hate comments from a group of people, maybe refrain from making a video about how much you dislike that group of people. Like attracts like, after all. If you post something negative, people will respond in a negative way.
3. Vegans often conflate meat eaters with the meat industry. She says most meat eaters do not support animal cruelty and most, if they saw how the animals were being mistreated, would want that situation to be changed, even if they don’t stop eating animal products.
I actually cringe a bit whenever I hear vegans online saying “by eating meat, you are a murderer.” I used to be a meat eater and I get what roaming millennial is saying here, to a certain point. I always considered myself an animal lover even when I wasn’t vegan. But a lot of people don’t understand the idea of voting with your dollar. By purchasing animal products, you are directly contributing to the torture and death of that animal. No, you are not committing the act of harm with your own hands, but you are paying someone else to. Yes, a lot of meat eaters do care when they see footage of what happens to animals in factory farms and they want to do something about it. But they don’t want to give up animal products, so they buy from things labeled “humanely raised.” We have to ask ourselves, though, is there such thing as humane killing? Even if the animal was given more space to walk around during their life, was given better food, etc. does that mean it’s okay to take their life for the sake of our tastebuds? No. In this time and in the Western world, we have nearly infinite choices when it comes to choosing what food to purchase. If we have that choice and can even be healthier, as Roaming Millennial herself even mentioned, why would we not make the more compassionate option?
4. Vegans don’t get sentience or intelligence hierarchies. She mentions how in the past Peta used the number of people killed in the holocaust compared to the number of animals killed every single day in factory farms, because they were approximately the same number (which is definitely horrifying). People took offense to Peta mentioning the holocaust in a vegan campaign. She says a lot of vegans see all animal lives, even that of a fly, as equal to lives of human beings (which is not true). She also mentions how some vegans bring up the pro life movement, “equating” human fetuses with pigs. She also says she doesn’t think animals are intelligent or sentient enough to be akin to murder for our food.
So first of all, I am both vegan AND pro-life because I don’t agree with any killing that is not purely for self defense situations. Also, veganism is not about equating human life with animal life. If I had to choose between saving a dog or a human child, I’d save the child. I still kill ants if they infest my house or any other pests that might come in. We have a right to defend ourselves. And yes, I’ve been known to kill flies if they’re becoming a problem, though I do catch them in a cup when I can and let them outside. The point of veganism is not purity, and it’s not putting yourself on the level of an animal. It’s simply to reduce cruelty as much as possible. That’s really it. As for the argument about sentience and intelligence, it doesn’t make sense to say animals aren’t “sentient enough” to be considered murdered if they are killed. There is no spectrum of sentience. You are either a sentient being (which has a brain and/or nervous system) or a non-sentient being, like a plant. The word “Sentient,” according to Google, is defined as “able to perceive or feel things.” It’s not a measure of intelligence. On that subject, though, Roaming Millennial claims that animals who are smarter should be able to live while less intelligent animals should be subject to killing for food. She mentions in one part that pigs are smarter than dogs, so pigs probably shouldn’t be killed either. Something tells me she’s never spent time with a cow. They are just like a big dog. They love to cuddle, have their head and belly rubbed, run around and play, and even push beach balls around with their nose.
Check out these smart cows!
Other animals show the same loving behavior as dogs too. Chickens love to be petted and hugged, and turkeys recognize and enjoy music. There is intelligence in every animal if we simply observe it. Sadly, not many farm animals get the chance to show this, though, because they are raised to be killed. Also, if we’re just going off of intelligence as a sign of worth, what does that say about people who are mentally handicapped? Should we not feel bad when they are treated cruelly because their lower intelligence makes them less important? No, not even close. Intelligence is irrelevant when it comes to the value of any life.
5.Vegans often “misrepresent or misinterpret nutritional studies.” She says most vegans claim meat to be the worst thing you can put in your body. She also points to a video that claims why high cholesterol foods are “good for you.” She claims that the reason for most vegans and vegetarians being healthier than other people is because they don’t smoke as much, drink as much, or eat as much processed food as a lot of meat eaters.
I want to first address the “doctor” she alludes to. He mentions a study where vegetarian people were found to be not much healthier than meat eaters. Key word: VEGETARIAN. There were no vegans in the study, meaning people who participated still ate animal products.This same doctor has other videos talking about how having a high cholesterol number isn’t really dangerous and that doctors are just lying to you about it. Sound like a legit medical professional? Didn’t think so. That aside, there is a HUGE amount of studies done on this topic. Check out nutritionfacts.org for actual scholarly articles and peer reviewed studies as explained by a nutritional doctor. Visit Doctor John McDougall’s website. He conducts a lot of his own peer reviewed studies. Or even read the book about one of the biggest studies ever done on this topic: The China Study. The information is out there if we’re willing to look. A lot of people these days like falling for fad diet books that give you nice sounding promises like being able to eat tons of butter, cheese and bacon all day to lose weight, but if you look up these authors, most are not even doctors or licensed nutritionists! It helps to seek out the source and follow the money. One other thing to note is that nutritional doctors like Michael Greger and John McDougall offer all of their info for free on their websites and on YouTube. People promoting low carb, paleo, and other diets typically have you buy their book before you can read the info. If money is being made, they are most likely just telling the reader what they want to hear. ;)
Also, I don’t believe meat is the “worst” thing you can put in your body. I mean, you could drink bleach and die in a matter of minutes or seconds. But that doesn’t mean animal products aren’t the leading cause of the most common diseases the Western world faces today, so yes, it is worth telling people about, even if some vegans choose to do it in a pushy way (sad as that is).
Overall, by making this video, Roaming Millennial is basically going against things she claims to be opposed to in her other videos as a whole:
She believes people shouldn’t be condemned for free speech, yet she tells vegans to stop talking about veganism all the time because it’s annoying.
She says a lot of vegans are hostile with their words, meaning her argument is based mainly on feelings instead of facts.
She links no credible sources for her nutritional claims, just one YouTube video with a questionable doctor in it. No peer reviewed studies on vegan nutrition at all. So she was not prepared to provide solid facts in her argument.
Sure, I don’t like it when people are mean or pushy to me about their beliefs, but that doesn’t mean the movement is wrong and it doesn’t mean the majority of vegans act this way. Roaming Millennial claimed after making the video that she was only targeting the “mean” vegans and that she has no problem with vegans who don’t push their beliefs on others. Yet, if you look at the videos this girl makes, she pushes her beliefs on people all the time and could be considered quite “mean” and “insensitive” on some of the topics she speaks about. For example, in her video “Body Positivity: Please Tell Me I'm Pretty!” she talks about how the current fat acceptance movement has gone way too far in trying to normalize being overweight and call it healthy or beautiful. I agree with everything she says in the video, and yet, SO many people get personally offended by this viewpoint and say
“Stop judging overweight people! If you want to be skinny, that’s fine, but don’t force your lifestyle on me!”
Sound familiar? Because as a vegan, I often hear,
“Stop judging meat eaters! If you want to be vegan, that’s fine, but don’t force your lifestyle on me!”
The funny thing is, like I said, I only mention my diet to people who ask in the first place. I never push them to do it, though I do tell them how great it makes me feel, how it helps the animals, etc. Some people still take it personally, though, and choose to view my testimony as “mean.” That is the main reason why I had a problem with Roaming Millennial's video. Let’s stop trying to silence people from talking about their lifestyle just because it makes you feel guilty. If you feel guilty because someone is trying to do something good for the world, how about trying to find out why they do it instead of just labeling them as a “mean” person you can no longer associate with. In fact, if something a vegan says makes you feel guilty, perhaps ask yourself, “Why do I feel guilty about this? Do I feel what I’m doing is wrong? And if I feel this way, should I change my lifestyle?”
At the end of the day, we make a lot more progress in the world when we encourage what we do believe in instead of ranting about what we don’t believe in. So let’s look for the good in not only our differing beliefs, but ultimately, each other. :)
I want to preface this article by saying that I like Steven Crowder. I actually agree with most of his views, especially how he encourages people to get out of their victim mentality and be a victor instead,or how he values facts over feelings. However, this is a rare instance where I disagree with him: the subject of veganism. He made this video quite a while back, interviewing a former vegan lady named Lierre Keith, who wrote the book The Vegetarian Myth. I love doing rebuttals, so I decided to clear up fact from fiction on this video (which is odd, because Steven usually clings to facts when it comes to other statements, but in this video, you’ll find a huge lack of peer reviewed studies or any real science at all). Let’s begin.
Here is the original video by Steven Crowder:
Here are all the main points of discussion throughout Steven’s interview with Lierre Keith in the order that they were brought up in the video:
Most people who are vegan “give up in 3 months.”
This is an appeal to the people/crowd fallacy. If a lot of people are giving up on a movement, it does not prove that the movement is bad or wrong. Also, she does not cite her source on this statistic, so there is no way of knowing if this is actually the behavior of the average vegan.
Being vegan for 20 years “destroyed” Lierre Keith’s health.
Usually, if someone’s health has been “destroyed,” they are near death. Lierre fails to give any examples or proof directly after this statement as to what the plant-based diet has done to her. Through she mentions a few things later on.
It’s a “harmful ideology that draws you in and makes you not know who you are anymore.”
She’s trying to say that veganism is like some kind of cult that brainwashes you. This is untrue, since veganism isn’t a religion or cult, nor does it have a leader or guru. If other vegans are trying to shame you or make you feel pressured, it is your choice whether or not to become like them or follow their ideology.
Steven crowder has a “passionate disdain” for veganism.
I’ve never understood why people would say this. Even when I was a meat eater, I had respect for vegans because they care about animals enough to spare their lives. What is so bad about that? Sure, some vegans online and on TV are rude and pushy, but get to know real vegans, like myself or my friends, and that is not the case at all. There will always be a jerk among a group of nice people. Just like how some Christians can be absolute bigots, but most are really nice.
Vegans “hate” Lierre Keith because she “still claims the same (liberal) moral ground and won’t give it up.”
When you make yourself a public figure with the goal of bringing down a movement, people who follow that movement will reject your message. When you treat others negatively, you will be treated the same in return. This is true with any group or movement. I myself don’t hate Lierre Keith, but I do dislike her negative message.
You “can’t hang onto any ideology (like veganism) that tightly,” otherwise, everything starts to “go wrong.”
Like what, exactly? Your health? Your relationships? Not sure what she means by this.
Steven “hates” the idea that if you eat animals, you hate animals. He attempts to prove this point by saying he has a dog he cares about a lot.
So why is it okay to love one animal and kill/eat another? And yes, people can have an adoration for animals and still eat them, but typically, if those people have to kill the animal themselves, they have a hard time doing it or just can’t bring themselves to do it at all. There is a great disconnect between the idea of loving our pets and paying others to kill other animals for food. All sentient creatures still have a will to live, whether it is a dog, a cow, or a human.
He doesn’t see meat eating as anything “unnatural” or that “displays hatred.”
This plays into the notion that if something is natural, it’s automatically good for you (the appeal-to-nature fallacy). We do plenty of things that are unnatural, like showering taking antibiotics when we have infections, etc. That doesn’t make them bad things. That being said, it is completely possible to live a completely healthy life (even a longer and healthier life than usual) on a plant-based diet. (see the book The China Study form more information on this). And no, having an animal killed for your food when it’s unnecessary in this day and age isn’t “hateful,” but it is irresponsible and uncaring. There are plenty of foods we can eat besides animal foods and we can still get all the nutrients we need from them, so why wouldn’t we choose that?
Lierre Keith says she gets a lot of death threats from vegans.
That’s unfortunate, and I don’t support death threats for any reason, but it’s also what anyone should expect if they talk about controversial topics online. It’s just how the internet works.
Steven says vegans won't be able to follow through with death threats because they’re “too exhausted.”
From what? Protein deficiency? That doesn’t exist unless someone is literally starving. Look it up. All foods contain amino acids, which are protein, and many plant-foods like quinoa or brown rice and beans contain all 9 amino acids, making them a complete protein. Vegans have plenty of energy. Often more than our meat-eating companions. There's also the vitamin B12 requirement, which humans can either get 1) second hand from an animal that has consumed the b12 bacteria from soil while grazing, 2) from b12 bacteria in dirt we neglect to wash from our produce, or 3) just by taking a supplement. I prefer the third option.
He also says vegans can’t go through with death threats because “they’re not pro-second-amendment people.”
I’m vegan and I’m pro-second-amendment. Most of my vegan friends are very conservative too and own guns. The idea that veganism is strictly a liberal movement is false and not based on any fact or statistic.
Steven likens Lierre leaving veganism to a muslim convert that needs to be executed (in vegans’ eyes) and Lierre replies “Yes, I’m an apostate.”
Again, they’re passive-aggressively implying that veganism is a cult or religion and that all vegans take part in shunning those who leave the movement. It’s nothing like that. I, nor my vegan friends, have ever acted that way, and nor would we.
Lierre states “Agriculture is the most destructive thing that people have done to the planet.” She goes on to say we’ve wiped out 98% of forests. (90% of the world’s prairies have been “destroyed.)”
Some proof of this would be nice. There is actually more evidence that animal agriculture, in particular, is what is causing the most destruction. Crops can be rotated to avoid problems with topsoil, and plants can be grown in FAR less space and with far less water than it takes to produce animal products. Besides that, according to the Cornell University website: “"More than half the U.S. grain and nearly 40 percent of world grain is being fed to livestock rather than being consumed directly by humans… Although grain production is increasing in total, the per capita supply has been decreasing for more than a decade. Clearly, there is reason for concern in the future." (Source: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat). If you think agriculture if killing that planet, let’s stop producing so much livestock that we have to grow all this grain for in the first place.
Lierre claims vegans want to “wipe out every natural habitat” so the farm animals can live in them.
The point of veganism is 1) to reduce animal suffering as much as possible 2) to reduce our carbon footprint on the environment by not contributing to factory farming of animals 3) to be healthier/live longer. We aren’t trying to get every farm animal released into the wild. As the demand for animal product decreases, less animals will be bred, so as demand goes down, so will the population of livestock animals. Simple as that. It’s not as if the world is just going to turn vegan overnight. It would be a process.
She admits factory farming is terrible and those animals live terrible lives.
Yes,that is absolutely true. Watch the film Earthlings if you are unaware of what goes on in factory farms.
She admits it’s bizarre to feed the farm animals things they weren’t designed to eat, like corn (and soy). She says it’s also “unhealthy when we eat them.”
True, it is unhealthy for the cows to eat those things and also unhealthy for people to eat animals, let alone unhealthy animals.
See the film Forks Over Knives or Eating You Alive for more scientific data on this.
Steven admits that the FDA does scam people when it comes to supplements and organic food, meaning it is not only too expensive for most local farmers, but there are still pesticides in organic food.
Which is true.
Lierre claims that the reason we have animal factory farms is because of the surplus of corn in the agriculture industry. She says this is not the way we or the cows were designed to eat.
Which is partially true, but we don’t just have animal agriculture to use up the corn and soy we have to grow. It’s also to meet the demand of meat that Americans (and other Westerners) expect to have as the main course of nearly every meal.
Lierre also says the giants that control the world's food supply require farmers to grow this much corn to keep up with the demand for these foods.
Which is also true, and unfortunate. But we can vote with our dollar and eradicate this regulation by reducing the demand.
She says the reason people have gotten fat is because corn, wheat, and soy are pushed on us because of the FDA subsidizing those crops. She calls them “Crap carbohydrates.”
While refined wheat flour, refined cornmeal/flour, and isolated soy proteins are empty calories that contribute to weight gain, whole wheat, whole corn, and whole soy have plenty of beneficial nutrients as well as fiber, which helps fight obesity, colon cancer, etc. Not to mention, wheat, corn, and soy are eaten in their whole form as staple foods all around the world, not just in America. Chinese and Japanese people have been eating soy in their traditional diets for centuries and they still live to be a century old!
Lierre claims that “every civilization that has sprung up around the basis of agriculture collapses (after 800-2000 years) because it wears out the top soil.”
No studies to back that up. Also, that’s why we have crop rotation, to keep the land lush and fertile.
Steven interprets that as “So if we go vegan, in a few hundred years we’ll (be eating animals and each other).”
Slippery slope fallacy.
Steven says he disagrees with Lierre on the subject of environmental sustainability, so they debate for a while over whether or not the government is reliable to make positive changes like we want them to. He doesn’t trust them to save the planet.
Which makes sense.
Steven says he once got persuaded to do the “green smoothie thing.” Rob Wolf (from the film Supersize Me” told him to stop doing that. Turns out, Steven has hypothyroidism, which is rare for a young person or a man. Lierre says she has it too. Steven points out that it’s a sign of prediabetes
Which is true. Green smoothies aren’t a bad thing, but they’re definitely not required on a vegan diet. I don’t prefer them myself.
He points out that kale and other goitrogenic vegetables can irritate this condition.
Which is partially true. It’s kind of like how sugar irritates diabetes, but it isn’t necessarily the cause of it. Goitrogenic vegetables like broccoli, cauliflower, and kale can irritate hypothyroidism, but they are definitely not the cause.
Here is how animal products cause diabetes (from an actual dietary doctor):
And here is the cause of hypothyroidism (from an actual doctor):
Lierre points out that a lot of vegetables aren’t edible until you cook them.
This is to thwart raw vegans, mainly. To this I say, so what? Most options on the paleo diet have to be cooked too. Humans possess an advanced brain with the ability to use tools and cook. Besides, even if it was considered totally natural for humans to eat all raw, that would yet again be an appeal to nature fallacy.
She goes further and claims that raw produce has “antinutrients” and that you have to cook vegetables in order to kill those anti-nutrients.
I would like to see the research and peer reviewed studies on the toxicity of these “antinutrients.” Sounds like nothing but fear mongering.
She says this is how “plants fight back,” because “plants don’t want to be eaten either,” so their only defense is “chemicals.” For this, she claims plants are “the original chemical warfare people.”
Plants don’t have a brain or emotions. Therefore they are incapable of coming up with wants, hopes, or dreams. Plants are not people, and most plants we use for food today obviously are perfectly safe to eat.
She says that’s why seeds are “so hard to eat. You have to do a lot to make seeds edible.”
When I was a kid, I walked to a field near my house, went up to a giant sunflower growing there, and popped the seeds out into my hand, eating them as I walked back home. I literally did nothing to make them “more edible.” I ate them straight from the source. I don’t really understand what she means with this statement.
She says that’s why plants are bitter, because they don’t want us to eat them. “That’s why they’re poisonous.”
Yet raw organ meats (which she mentions later) are also disgusting and taste nauseating. But Lierre still encourages people to eat them. Are we to assume that because something tastes bad in its natural form, like some vegetables happen to, that they are bad for you? No. There is no evidence at all to back up that claim.
She also says, “We have no way to digest cellulose anyway.You need multiple chambers in your stomach, tons of bacteria that can do the work, we can’t even do it. Most of the food on this planet is never going to be food for us.”
Normalizes bowel movements. Dietary fiber increases the weight and size of your stool and softens it. A bulky stool is easier to pass, decreasing your chance of constipation. If you have loose, watery stools, fiber may help to solidify the stool because it absorbs water and adds bulk to stool.
Helps maintain bowel health. A high-fiber diet may lower your risk of developing hemorrhoids and small pouches in your colon (diverticular disease). Some fiber is fermented in the colon. Researchers are looking at how this may play a role in preventing diseases of the colon.
Lowers cholesterol levels. Soluble fiber found in beans, oats, flaxseed and oat bran may help lower total blood cholesterol levels by lowering low-density lipoprotein, or "bad," cholesterol levels. Studies also have shown that high-fiber foods may have other heart-health benefits, such as reducing blood pressure and inflammation.
Helps control blood sugar levels. In people with diabetes, fiber — particularly soluble fiber — can slow the absorption of sugar and help improve blood sugar levels. A healthy diet that includes insoluble fiber may also reduce the risk of developing type 2 diabetes.
Aids in achieving healthy weight. High-fiber foods tend to be more filling than low-fiber foods, so you're likely to eat less and stay satisfied longer. And high-fiber foods tend to take longer to eat and to be less "energy dense," which means they have fewer calories for the same volume of food.
Steven assumes that the raw diet is unhealthy because Andy Dick does it and he “looks unhealthy.”
Honestly, I’m not sure why raw veganism keeps coming up in this discussion. The topic is regular veganism, not specifically raw veganism. But that being said, you can't base the benefits of an entire eating lifestyle on the perceived appearance of one person who follows it. If we were to follow the crazy starvation diets of many celebrities, simply because they look good, we would find ourselves very unhealthy.
Steven now eats raw egg yolks, cod liver oil, etc. Lierre applauds him, saying it’s good to eat raw organ meats a little each week too. She says she knows a lot of people are grossed out by that, but around the world, through all human history, those are the foods considered sacred. She also consumes bone broth.
We’re grossed out by it because you’re literally eating raw bloody flesh. Just google “raw meat dangers” or “raw egg dangers,” E Coli, Salmonella, and Listeria immediately come up among other food borne illnesses. Not to mention the increased likelihood of contracting a parasite. Also, bone broth is likely to contain lead, as explained by this dietary doctor:
Lierre says she “did permanent damage to her body,” from being vegan, all because she was “young and idealistic,” but she made a mistake.
Everyone thinks they were dumber in their younger days, so that’s beside the point. But when it comes to damage Lierre has done to her body, she really never goes into great detail about what exactly has happened to her. She mentions hypothyroidism, but we don’t know if that was before or after going vegan. She also mentions being plant-based for 20 years messed up her insulin receptors in some way, but as far as we can tell, she’s not diabetic or even prediabetic, so this argument really holds no water unless she gives more detail of her supposed conditions.
She says over those scope of “2 million years in our history,there’s no question about what we ate. People who come up with these just-so stories are people who are ideologically driven.” She goes on to say we know this from the teeth and bones of early humans, their campsites full of animal remains, as well as the “pictures they drew about it.”
First of all, everyone is ideologically driven, including Lierre. She just switched one ideology for another when she quit veganism. Also, once again, she provides no sources for this information. However, real archeologists will tell you that early human remains were always found with grains in their teeth. They not only ate crops, but grew them too.
Take it from an actual dietary doctor:
Or better yet, an actual archeologist:
She says we can look at today’s hunter gatherers and see what they eat as an example.
Again, just because our ancestors did it (appeal to tradition fallacy) or just because it’s considered “natural” (appeal to nature fallacy), doesn’t prove something is healthy.
Steven points out that even modern hunter-gatherers lives are significantly shorter than lifespans of people in modern society, just like those in paleolithic times. He asks how Lierre would explain that.
He is correct to question that.
Lierre says “the number you need is the mortality rate double time, and what that says is it factors out all the environmental reasons people die at very young ages. So throughout most of human history, if you lived to be five years old, you actually lived to be about as old as we are now. But early childhood was a really hard time to be a human being. So if you got over all the environmental factors that made being a baby really hard in pre-history, past that, you had really solid health.”
This is 100% scientifically untrue, as cavemen are documented as living to an average age of 30. Most did not die in childhood, but they did not live long as an adult either.
She says “that changes when people take up agriculture. It was actually a complete disaster for human health when people switched from these nutrient dense diets based on animals to diets based strictly on carbohydrate. The archeological record could not be clearer. Their bones crumble, their teeth fall out, and they shrink 6 inches, almost immediately.”
Again, some proof of these findings would really help this point sound more valid.
Steven says, on this topic, he is a moderate. He believes that mainly meats, veggies, and some fruit are good, and he doesn’t believe some oatmeal is going to kill you. He says he can understand the argument for the paleo crowd, but he does think it’s “undeniable” that a lot about diets is influenced by political power and those who have the most amount of cash.” He likens this to “superfarms.”
He is correct in saying that we need fruits and veggies in our diet. And yes, whole grains are good for you and will definitely not kill you. Google “Staple foods” and go to the wikipedia page to see all the cultures of the world “dying” off of their main food source: grains. Including cultures of people that live into their hundreds, such as in Okinawa, Japan and Papua, New Guinea. These are also cultures that eat very little meat/eggs and virtually no dairy.
Steven says, “If you look at the American diet and the food pyramid, the human diet has changed in the past 100 years more than it has in the thousands of years preceding it.”
Which is true to a certain degree. We still require the same nutrients as before, but processed food is more of a temptation now, though whole foods are still available.
Lierre agrees, saying that “because of the government, everyone is fat and sick and stupid and dying.”
This is somewhat true, but a bit of an exaggeration. We still have a choice in what we eat or do with our lives. The government controls subsidies and advertising, but not what we make our own decisions to purchase and consume.
She gives examples of kids as young as 10 having diabetes that used to be called “adult onset” diabetes.
This is also true, but diabetes is not caused by whole plant carbohydrates, nor are there any studies that directly link things like corn, soy, or wheat to diabetes. There are, however, plenty of studies that link high animal product consumption to diabetes. (See the diabetes video on point #25).
Lierre claims that problems like diabetes are prevalent these days because the government told people to stop eating fat and eat more carbohydrates, and “we were not designed to eat a diet that is mainly sugar.”
Around the 1980s, we were being told by certain health organizations such as the FDA that a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol contributed greatly to diabetes, heart disease, and cancer (which often comes with obesity, etc.). But unsaturated fats, such as those in avocados, olives, etc. were still considered healthy. So fat itself wasn’t seen as the villain, only saturated fats which come mainly from animal-based foods. Also, when the FDA suggested we lay off the fats and eat more carbohydrates, they obviously didn’t mean white flour and processed sugar. Non-starchy vegetables, starchy vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, nuts and seeds all contain carbohydrates, and all are very good for the human body because they contain essential nutrients. Not to mention, glucose is a required nutrient to feed our cells. Without it, our body goes into ketosis, where we are running off of our fat stores only. This is how our body tries to help us survive during starvation. So while some people lose weight eating low-carb, they are also not getting the proper nutrients for their cells, especially the brain. Nowadays, the script has been flipped, and because of the Atkins, Keto, and Paleo movements, people are eating more fat than ever, and getting sicker than ever.
Steven asks “What about people like Rob Wolf who say tubers, root vegetables, potatoes and sweet potatoes are good for high performing athletes?” He says since they are not processed grains, some say that they are good for athletes who need higher carbs.
To this day, there is no proven study to suggest that grains increase our mortality risk in any way. Also, there have been entire societies of people who have lived off of potatoes. Just look at what happened to the Irish during the potato famine. Before it happened, they thrived. When their potato crops died out, so did they. It was their main food source that kept them alive and healthy. Also, after World War II, food was scarce in Japan because people were having trouble growing rice, so they turned to growing sweet potatoes (those grow even in soil that is less fertile) and they saved themselves from famine. To this day, those in Japan that still follow a traditional Japanese diet, including staples of rice and sweet potatoes, often live to be in their hundreds with virtually no diseases.
Lierre agrees, though she says it depends on how much damage you’ve done to your insulin receptors. She says she’s done a lot of damage to hers, to the extent that she can’t handle that load of carbohydrate on a daily basis.
See the video I posted about diabetes under point #25. Also, it sounds as if Lierre doesn’t have diabetes, she just believes she has has damage to her insulin receptors. For all we know, she could have self-diagnosed this, and she is not a doctor.
Steven says, while he agrees and disagrees with different parts of Lierre’s overall position on this topic, he also hates people on the other side who say "life expectancy is longer now" compared to the paleolithic days. He says, “people used to have 19 kids and one would get kicked by a horse and die. Nowadays people get taken out by a box of fruit loops… Nowadays the chronic disease is definitely a problem. I think everyone tries to solve it a different way.”
It would appear the change in our diet was mainly the introduction of bigger animal product servings and a decrease in whole plant foods as the years go by.
Steven goes back to the idea of Lierre being an “apostate.” He asks Lierre how she feels about having the majority of the diet industry say to fill up half your plate with fruits and veggies when she has seen “what this can do to your body.”
Again, filling up half your plate, by common medical knowledge and research, is extremely healthy, as proven by this dietary doctor’s presentation on peer reviewed studies for the topic.
There is no big conspiracy on eating fruits and vegetables. Such a thing would be illogical and frankly, ridiculous.
Lierre says, “There are a lot more doctors coming around,” and that more studies are coming out saying that saturated fat actually “doesn’t hurt people.”
First of all, most doctors only get less than 20 hours of nutritional education. Unless someone is a dietician, nutritionist, or a doctor specializing in nutrition, it's best to get a second opinion from someone with a dietary degree. But when it comes to there being more doctors pushing the paleo diet, of course there are. There are studies that say hugging your dog is bad for them too. There are lots of studies that make bold claims, but unless they are peer reviewed and proven to work every single time, it’s best to be skeptical of them. Not to mention, people love hearing researchers tell them, “You can eat all the butter and bacon you want and lose weight!” Of course more doctors are turning to that. People actually listen to it, even though it’s not truly healthful.
Lierre states that “the USDA is not charged with protecting public health, they are charged with selling commodity agriculture. So they're going to keep pushing that food pyramid basically until they’re dead.”
Which is true, but this goes for them pushing animal agriculture too. The American cancer society is sponsored in part by the Tyson meat company. The American Diabetes Association is sponsored in part by the Dannon dairy company. The American Heart Association is sponsored by Splenda, Walmart, Walgreens, Subway, and Monsanto. This information is right on their websites. With money coming in from these loyal and unhealthy companies, you can bet, they are saying whatever those companies want them to say.
They both then discuss why it’s important to “follow the money” when it comes to big companies claiming things are healthy for us.
Which, in and of itself, is true.
However, there is overwhelming evidence throughout scientific history that diets higher in fruits and vegetables are more healing to the body and preventative of disease and weight problems.
(See the video in point #48).
Steven goes back to Lierre’s statement how animals weren’t meant to be this way (factory farmed), and points out that humans took wolves and domesticated them to our dog companions to help us. So he says animal domestication isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
Which is partially true, if you consider the needs of people in history. But we must also consider the needs of people today (or lack of them) concerning domesticated animals. These days in the Western world, dogs are usually pets, not hunting companions or sheep dogs. In fact, many dogs are homeless and dying on the streets because we’ve let them overpopulate (and many pet owners choose not to spay or neuter them, which makes the problem worse). If the majority of people took up a plant-based diet, there would be little need for farm animal domestication anymore either.
Lierre uses this point to mention that plants don’t want much to do with us either, except “a few that figured ‘if we work together, this can work for both of us',” such as certain grasses planted in forests, as well as corn, soy, and wheat.
Plants aren’t capable of making their minds up about anything. They don’t have minds.
She uses the example of apples, that before, apples used to be inedible, but we bred them to be sweet enough that we could handle eating them.
This is true, but it proves nothing about what we as humans are supposed to eat to be healthy. We bred plants to be tastier just like people bred the animals meat eaters consume to be fatter and more docile. This has nothing to do with it being healthy or not.
She says it’s the same with (domestic) animals. A few were willing to “give it a try.” It’s not us doing something horrible to them, or them doing something horrible us, these are independent (interdependent?) relationships. Everything in nature is that kind of relationship.” She give the example of insects pollinating plants and says everyone gets something out of that relationship, stating “it’s the same with domesticated animals and humans. We get something out of it, they get something out of it and we all live longer.”
Before it is slaughtered, every single animal cries out in pain and puts up a fight for their lives. They are never “willing to give it a try.” Watch Earthlings or any footage inside a factory farm if you’ve never seen this process. This is not a “cycle of life” since we are producing those animals in surplus. It is not a natural cycle in any way. And even if it was, as mentioned before, “natural” does not equate to healthy.
Steven brings up a conversation he had with a vegan, stating that she hated meat and it was cruel. She said “I don’t want whatever’s on your plate because it’s dead. My food is living.” He says that that’s ironic because a food dehydrator is the “Auschwitz of asparagus.”
It’s always uncomfortable when someone tries to push their ideologies on us. This is something I personally don’t do because it never convinces anyone of anything. However, it sounds like Steven was speaking specifically to a raw vegan, which is a different thing entirely, but it still falls under the vegan umbrella, so I will address it anyway. First of all, a dehydrator keeps the nutrients and live enzymes of fruits and vegetables alive and intact as long as it is not heated above 118 degrees fahrenheit. Auschwitz for vegetables would look more like a stove or an oven, where more nutrients are likely to be lost. Most vegans do not use the “living food” argument because most prefer a lot of cooked food in their diet, unlike raw vegans. I myself eat a lot of cooked food. Still, most plant foods we eat don’t kill the plant. Pick fruit off of a tree, a berry from a bush, or a tomato from a vine, and the plant still keeps on growing. In cases such as root vegetables where we actually eat the plant, though, see what I have to say about that on point #58.
He says he knows his food is dead. He picked it up from the farmer’s market and knew it “lived a good life.”
If a good life means living for barely a fraction of your full lifespan, being kept in a harsh, cramped environment most (or all) of that short life, and then being met with a painful and horrific death, then I hope I never live that “good life.”
Steven asks, “If we’re going to create this moral equivalency between animals and humans, (which I don’t believe in, I don’t believe animals are on the same playing field as humans, I believe we’re smarter, we have a space program and lightbulbs), isn’t it then easy to create the equivalency between (plants)? If we’re all the same, wouldn’t plants deserve any less consideration than the animals above them or humans?
The point of veganism is not that humans and all other life forms are equal. For example, we kill bugs all the time just by stepping on them by accident, we kill bacteria just by being alive, and we have to eat plants in order to stay alive. If I had a choice between saving a human child and saving a dog, of course, I would save the human child. However, that doesn’t automatically mean that dog’s life has no value, as with any animal/sentient being. If we don’t have to eat animals, and we can even be healthier doing that, then we should make that choice. The point is to reduce cruelty toward sentient beings (meaning they have a brain and are able to suffer) as much as possible. Simple as that. Besides, even if plants did show signs of suffering, what would be the alternative? Not eating anything? Starving to death? No. But if people are really that concerned about the wellbeing of plants, we should stop raising livestock, because most of the grain, corn, and soy we grow goes to them, not us.
Lierre says that was a problem she had when she was a vegan because she didn’t want to make those “hierarchies” and yet she was. Meat eaters would taunt her with questions like “what about the plants?” And she “never had a good answer.”
I do. Unlike animals, plants don’t have a brain or a nervous system, therefore they are
unable to feel pain. Also, while studies have shown that plants emit measurable frequencies that sometimes seem to be connected to emotions of people around them, again, they don’t have a brain, and are unable to produce complex emotions, so they cannot suffer. Which would make you more uncomfortable: chopping up a carrot, or slitting a lamb’s throat? There is a reason that killing a sentient being evokes negative feelings while we couldn’t care less about a plant food being chopped up.
Lierre says nature is a cycle and if you take one piece out of that cycle, the whole thing collapses. If you don’t have enough predators eating the ruminants, they will turn the place to desert. Humans are apex predators, just like wolves and bears.
Let’s look at our own physiology as humans and compare it with omnivores like bears, carnivores like wolves, herbivores, etc.
It’s plain to see what humans do not fit the biological profile of a carnivore or omnivore at all. This would explain why our bodies contract more illnesses (diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc. when we eat a diet high in animal products. He lean more to the Herbivore/Frugivore side. Nutritional physicians such as Dr. John McDougall suggest that we could even be put into our own category, known as “starchivores.”
Steven agrees and jokingly says “when you’ve got your permit to carry, you become an apex predator.”
I realize this was a joke, but it brings up an interesting point. Without guns or man-made weapons, how would we kill animals? With our sharp claws and long fangs? Oh wait, we don’t have those. (see the previous comparison chart). If we need complex weapons to kill our animals, and we’re not willing to eat the bones, blood, nails, snout, anus,and cartilage of the animal like all carnivores do, it’s safe to say we’re not carnivores (or omnivores).
In their closing statements, Steven jokes that vegans might have a hard time doing a Google search for Lierre’s book online because they don’t have enough saturated fat to make their brain cells work properly.
Again, this was meant as a joke, but a lot of people actually believe this to be a significant nutritional point, so I will address it. For one thing, let’s observe a common brain issue many people face today: strokes. By definition, according to medicalnewstoday.com, “Strokes occur due to problems with the blood supply to the brain: either the blood supply is blocked or a blood vessel within the brain ruptures, causing brain tissue to die.” These blocked blood vessels are caused by plaque in the arteries, the same way that such plaque can cause heart disease and erectile dysfunction. According to this peer reviewed study, http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1777.short , A Low-Fat Vegan Diet Improves Glycemic Control and Cardiovascular Risk Factors, meaning that lowering the fat (especially saturated fat) in your diet will actually decrease your risk for stroke, heart disease, diabetes, etc, which is fantastic news for your brain. Fat is definitely an essential nutrient for the body to function, but you only need 36 to 62 grams of fat when consuming a 1,600-calorie diet per day, 44 to 78 grams if eating a 2,000-calorie diet per day and (for athletes) 58 to 101 grams of fat when consuming 2,600 calories per day.
Still, if you are convinced that you need high amounts of saturated fat in your diet, you can get plenty of it from coconut or coconut oil. Problem solved.
There were other videos and articles in which Steven pokes fun at vegans, including his video entitled ACTUAL SCIENTIST: "Climate Change is a Scam!, in which he states,
“Orca whales are vicious. So are seals (and) sea otters. Their mating patterns.. I have standup bits about this where I take some pretty rough stuff in the animal kingdom (of course I use it as leverage to make fun of vegans, but) when people say animals don’t treat each other as poorly as humans, do- ‘Come again, stupid?’ Some of what they do, dolphins for example, commit infanticide, they kill for fun, they rape other dolphins. The point is, yes, the animal kingdom is not perfect.”
For the record, I’ve never heard any vegan try to claim that animals don’t treat each other as poorly as humans. But even though animals can be cruel to other animals at times, it is in their nature. Especially animals that have to kill other animals just to have food. But killing them because they are “cruel” would mean we are repeating the think we are killing them for. We would become the ones that are cruel by killing them. Also animals usually don’t have the empathy or reasoning that human beings have when it comes to preserving life. And that can be a good thing. Otherwise nature would have no predators to be their population control and our planet would be completely overrun. We don’t need to interfere. As long as we are not being attacked or infested, there is no need to interfere with or kill animals in their natural habitats.
Also, in his video entitled DEBUNKED: Top 5 "Climate Change" Myths, Steven states,
“Myth: the polar bears are dying off. Truth: There are possibly more of these soul-less killing monsters on Earth today than ever. Certainly since we’ve been monitoring them… It’s one of the few species to actually hunt humans. What the h*** are we keeping them around for?”
He goes on to say that while Disney shows polar bears and cute and cuddly, don’t show your kids footage of actual polar bears ripping seals apart.
“If their population keeps growing,” he says, “that won’t be a seal, it will be your son. Science hat back on, kill all of them.”
Just want to interject here- fear mongering and slippery slope fallacy. That aside, Steven clearly has a great disconnect between the pets he loves (which are just as vicious when they are wild, such as wolves), and other animal species. Lierre mentioned in her interview with him about the cycle of life and how all species play a vital part in the Earth’s eco-system, and if one part is taken away, the results can be catastrophic. If polar bears were all killed off because we suddenly decided they are “useless” or “soul-less killing machines,” the population of seals would increase, making the population of fish that they consume decrease, tipping the environment in the opposite direction. Not to mention, why would you want to kill an animal you don’t even live near and that poses no threat whatsoever to you or your loved ones? I can understand if I was being chased by a polar bear, I’d shoot him to protect myself, as anyone would, vegan or not. But that doesn’t mean we should just kill for the heck of it. Non-vegans often tell me “don’t try to tell people what to eat. Just live and let live.” By that logic, why can’t we just live and let animals live too?
Lastly, Steven has an article on his website called Woman Spots Chicken Truck, Rams it With Her Car. Because She’s Vegan… Of course, the article is written to paint vegans as crazy hippies who get triggered by something as mundane as a chicken truck. Obviously, this lady was actually insane, unlike the vast majority of vegans who would never even think of doing something so stupid (and ironic, she did happen to harm some chickens in the crash, which shows it was more about her own pride, not about the welfare of the chickens).
At the end of the day, being vegan isn’t about seeing animals as equivalents to humans. It’s not about saving every living organism from death, and it’s not about dogma or purity. It’s about making an effort to reduce cruelty as much as we can, and likely become healthier in the process. If we live in a time and place where we have options when we go to the grocery store and can choose anything we want to eat, why not choose the compassionate option? Making that choice has made all the difference in my life and I know it can for others too. :)
As I said, I have nothing against Steven Crowder or Lierre Keith as people. In fact, I think they are very intelligent individuals who both have causes they really care about, which I respect. I do hope, however, that they will recognize and respect other people’s efforts toward their own causes as well and try to look at things from the opposite point of view with logic instead of pre-conceived notions.
